What It Takes to Manufacture in NYC (Costs, Craft, and Control) with Eleanor Mooney of Verdant

Eleanor Mooney is the co-founder of Verdant, a New York City-made luxury lingerie line built for real life - not just the fitting room. In this episode, she and Emily Jean get into what it actually takes to create high-quality lingerie from the ground up: sourcing European fabrics, obsessing over stretch and recovery, wear-testing every sample, and building an e-commerce experience that still feels like boutique-level service.

If you’ve ever wondered why some bras look amazing for five minutes and then fall apart by lunchtime, Eleanor breaks down the details most brands overlook - plus how Verdant is designing for “stillness and motion” so women can move, work, commute, mom, and live without adjusting straps all day.

Verdant is a masterclass in what “premium” is supposed to mean: fewer pieces, better materials, better fit, and an obsession with how a woman actually moves through her day. If you’re building a product brand (or just tired of bras that don’t keep up with your life), this conversation will make you rethink what’s worth investing in - and how service and craftsmanship become the real differentiators.

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Transcript:

Okay, Eleanor Mooney.

Eleanor (00:18)

Verdant, yes.

Yes.

Emily Jean (00:29)

Eleanor of Verdant welcome to Founders in Jeans. I'm so excited to have you today.

Eleanor (00:35)

Emily, thank you so much for having me. I am an avid podcast listener, but this is my first time on a podcast and I'm thrilled to be talking about Verdant here with you today.

Emily Jean (00:45)

I'm so excited that this is your first time because lately I've been having a lot more veteran founders and I think that the conversations are more authentic when I have somebody who's like, I'm doing this for the first time. It's exciting for me. But anyways, why don't you tell people a little bit about you and the brands for people who have not heard of you yet?

Eleanor (01:07)

Yes, so I am the co-founder of Verdant. We are a luxury lingerie line based in New York City. We design here, we produce here, and I also have another business that I have been a part of for 10 years. And so my day-to-day is really juggling the two of them, managing the operations. But my focus right now is really on growing Verdant.

Emily Jean (01:37)

So I have your bio. So obviously I know that you've gone from managing multi-million dollar luxury retail stores to now building your own lingerie brands. So I guess I'm kind of curious, how do you describe to people at parties or what say you, ⁓ what you do in the day to day and in general?

Eleanor (02:00)

Yeah. ⁓

For me, it's a little tricky. I don't love talking about myself. ⁓ I'm definitely like a behind the scenes person. ⁓ My other business ⁓ is a luxury concierge business. And so we manage the homes and lives of people in New York City, usually a lot of other small business owners ⁓ or C-suite executives and families. ⁓ And so that's a little easier to understand, think, especially for New Yorkers who have extra help around the house.

⁓ And for Verdant, you know, it's really fresh. Michelle and I met actually 20, no, 15 years ago working when we were in our 20s in SoHo. And we both loved lingerie and talked about like maybe opening a lingerie store one day. And what it kind of metamorphosed into is a few years ago during COVID, Michelle went back to school. She went to FIT for her tech

design degree and she approached me after having my own business and asked if I wanted to start for Daunt with her. And so we...

do all of the kind of day-to-day together, but Michelle really designs everything and I kind of work on the back end of like making sure things are running, ⁓ getting the contacts that we need. ⁓ We have a lot of people in our network who have been in the industry for a long time, ⁓ who are great mentors and like really helpful getting us into contact with the people we need to find to source things or to even produce the line. ⁓

And so I think the day to day and like many other founders wearing a million hats and just making sure everything stays above water.

Emily Jean (03:54)

Pre-usual. As I had somebody the other day said that they are really tired of hearing the phrase, building the airplane in the air while it's flying or something along those lines.

Eleanor (03:56)

Yeah.

yeah, I feel like there

are a lot of those phrases that I've never heard, but they're all so good. I mean...

Emily Jean (04:09)

Yeah, yeah, I'm

like, I'm like, but it's true. Like that is the reality for so many founders. ⁓

Eleanor (04:17)

Yeah,

yeah, I mean

One of the things that Michelle and I learned really early on, I think you've probably heard this a million times, Emily, from the other women that you interview, is that, you know, I think women, we really underestimate and undervalue ourselves. And when we were starting out, we spoke to so many people and we were like, we need to get somebody who, who's an expert. Like we need a consultant to like really help us with this. And we were working with like these

two wonderful women in Italy where a lot of lingerie is produced. And we quickly realized that we should be doing it all ourselves. Like we wanted to be doing the nitty gritty. We could find the same contacts that they had. We'd actually sourced the same fabric that they had sent to us already. ⁓ And so, yeah, for us it was like...

We want to be boots on the ground. We want to be working with the vendors. We want to be seeing everything in person. And Michelle is actually, when she's in production, when we're sampling, she's in the garment district every day with our ⁓ cutters and with our production, with our seamstresses, and we're there with our graders. ⁓ Do you know what grading is?

Emily Jean (05:36)

I don't actually, but I want you to tell me.

Eleanor (05:38)

Okay, so grading is really cool. didn't know what it was either. When we started the line. So grading is actually like if you create a sample. So if you have a bra and you create the sample, the sample is typically in laundry like a small or like a 32C or 34B.

You take that sample and the grader actually creates the pattern to make it bigger or smaller. So the grader is the one who makes the sample into a 34B or a 34A or a 30D, whatever the other sizes are. And it's so precise in lingerie ⁓ because you have both the band and the cup size and every style of bra is a little bit different. So you also have wireless bras that maybe you know are extra small through large and that's a little

different and we've had so many conversations about like does this bra go you know actually small through large or is it abandoned cup size ⁓ but those conversations with the people who are actually doing it on the ground are really important because I think a lot can be lost in translation and also when you're not there actually seeing the pieces being made.

Emily Jean (06:46)

Right. Yeah, I have never really had my hand in the manufacturer side of things as it applies to clothes. I was the former director of marketing for a luxury brand in California for a couple of years. But so that's like you're only really doing kind of the work after everything's been done and taking that final product. But I did watch growing up. I never could. I'm not going to remember what it was called, but it was like a

this about this bra store and it was like a reality TV show and these women would come into this bra store in the south and they would get fitted for their perfect bra basically and they would like sometimes they'd custom make, do you know what I'm talking about? I don't know.

Eleanor (07:29)

I've heard

of this. I've never seen it, but I've heard of it. Yes.

Emily Jean (07:33)

And so anyways, I think I'm gonna get blasted with the sun here. gonna have to close these curtains in a second. I think that idea of like finding the perfect bra for women is really empowering. Like that show taught me that in a new level. I think I was watching it before I needed a bra. But it was like, it's such a special magical moment. And it must be really magical to work on that backside of things too.

Eleanor (07:53)

Yeah.

Yeah, ⁓ for me, working lingerie with women...

was really special. And I love, you know, our day to day. We don't have a brick and mortar store at the moment. We would love to, it's really expensive in New York. We are hoping that happens at some point in the future. But my time in stores, I loved. I loved sizing women. I loved getting them into a bra. I think when a woman is in the...

I don't want to say correct because I don't think that there's a correct size for every person, but like in a bra that fits them, I feel like their confidence goes up like 20 points. Seeing them in something that fits them really well, like even putting on a t-shirt over a bra that fits you really well, think like, you know, you're...

Emily Jean (08:45)

like

Eleanor (08:55)

you feel more lifted and you just feel better. You look better as well. yeah, Michelle and I both have sized so many different women and seen them at different stages in their lives. And I think that's a big part of why we created the brand. ⁓ I think women go through many metamorphoses and part of Verdant is that kind of evolution of being able to fit into raw for many

Emily Jean (08:59)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah.

Eleanor (09:25)

stages of your life instead of it just being, you know, a season and it overstretched and you have to get rid of it. ⁓ The fabrics that we use are really high quality. ⁓

European made fabrics and there's something called stretch and recovery and so stretch obviously is you something coming out but the recovery is the fabric going back and so you know there's like so many brands that have like really great stretch and you're like this is gonna fit me no matter what time of the month it is or like if I gain a little weight it's gonna still look great on me and those pieces definitely have a spot in all of our wardrobes but our pieces are meant to like stretch and then go back to what it was when you

it on in the morning. like when you get dressed in the morning and you're you know running to the subway or like running after your kids, Michelle has two kids so she's like running after them all the time, corralling them. And then you take them off at the end of the day they're still where it was when you put it on. They're not you know shifted around because they are made of very high quality fabric and that was something for us that was really really important is that

not just the fabrics are really high quality, but the fit was really high quality. And I think producing in New York, that's another aspect of it is like, we can see that the quality is very high and that we're working with really, we're choosing to work with artisans in the garment districts that have been doing this for decades. Yeah.

Emily Jean (10:52)

Right.

Yeah. Give me just one second. want to close this line first. Sorry. I always forget that this one comes out right this time right here.

There we go.

Okay, hopefully that's not too spooky. There we go. Okay. Okay, so you are probably gonna have to help me with the pronunciation of some of these. Obviously I've seen these in writing, but I've never had to say them out loud. yes, Vilprykin, okay, and Jornel, is that right? Well.

Eleanor (11:32)

No, it looks great.

Okay.

Okay, Vilbriken? Is that?

Yes. Journal, yeah.

Emily Jean (11:58)

and Bar- Bar- Bar- Barber. Okay good. Well then I was over complicating it. Okay well I know that your career has spanned Barber and Filbrekin and Rennell. What is one skill from those years that you still use daily at Verdant?

Eleanor (12:00)

I think it's just barber.

Yeah.

Yeah, so many skills. think, I mean, one thing that I take away from working in the luxury and heritage, working for these heritage brands ⁓ is that I can see how they stay relevant, like see their evolution, which I think in fashion is really hard and can be really difficult to do.

I was on the retail side of these brands and so I was in customer service and that's kind what my day to day is, is customer service with my clients and also for Don. ⁓ And customer service is really, really hard and especially in New York where New Yorkers know what they want. They want it now and if you can't give it to them, they'll go somewhere else. And so being able to provide a very

high level of service to people, ⁓ to many people usually at one time, ⁓ is really hard and I think we what that's one thing that I think of when I go into stores now. ⁓ I think

I don't know about what your experience is like, what it's like in Sydney, but here like customer service, a lot of people complain about it. I think some people think it's kind of a lost art, but I don't think it is. I think it's something that you can train people on. And I think it's something that, you know, the more you're interacting with people, the more you'll be able to provide a level of service that you would want to receive. And I think it's a lot about putting yourself in those person's shoes. And I would really love if like everyone had

like a year of customer service or like hospitality experience to like see it for themselves. It's hard.

Emily Jean (14:15)

Absolutely. I hear that a lot. think customer service is probably the most important aspect of any brand and also one of the more difficult things to get correct. ⁓ Yeah, it's very difficult to center a brand around customer service, but that's really what's desired now. I think rightfully so in some aspects, but ⁓ yeah.

Eleanor (14:32)

Yeah.

Emily Jean (14:46)

I wanted to ask you about denim and lingerie. ⁓ I really want to start kind of like with some fun stuff. So what is your personal rule for pairing denim with lingerie?

Eleanor (14:51)

Yes.

Yes, so I'm an Aquarius and so I'm a rule breaker and I think in fashion as well rules are meant to be broken. ⁓ So I don't have a...

I don't have an exact rule. I think the main thing is that you have fun with it and that you really love what you're wearing and feel comfortable and confident in it. ⁓ I also think dressing for your body type, which you and I were talking about a little bit earlier, is really important. I've worked in both denim and in lingerie, and for me, I'm a stickler for fit. ⁓ I think women...

All people, I guess, get really stuck in a size and it's more about what you feel comfortable in. And no one's gonna see your size tag. No one's gonna see your jean size. No one's gonna see your bra size. And you want it to fit you and you want it to feel good on you and you want it to make you feel empowered. And so finding the right shape for you and the right size for you, I think, is the most important. I personally really love a mid-rise wide leg jean.

Emily Jean (15:44)

Hmm.

Eleanor (16:11)

with a long line. I'm a really short torso so like a long line for me is kind of like a top and then having like some sort of like sheer top over it or like a muscle T and having it kind of like peek out and so it's not super exposed but you can still kind of see it and see like the finer details.

Emily Jean (16:29)

Right. I think for some people that hear lingerie and denim, like I'm thinking of my mom specifically, she's going to hear that and she's like, so I need to wear my jeans with a bra. Yeah. What would you say for people who maybe want to try it tomorrow? Where should they start?

Eleanor (16:40)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think for both denim and bras, know, they're wardrobe staples. Walk over to your closet or to your armoire, wherever you have these pieces, and pull two of your favorite pieces, your favorite pair of jeans, your favorite bra, and think about how...

if you weren't to see anyone how you would wear it. I like to think of like how can I show this without

you know, with also keeping a little bit of it a secret. So if you have like a white blouse, maybe unbutton an extra one or like wear one shoulder off so you see just like the top of your bra and the strap. ⁓ If you wear like muscle tees or like oversized shirts, maybe wear like a bright bra, like a red bra or a highlighter color. I love like a neon bra under like a white shirt. I that's really fun.

⁓

Just something that, you know, pushing the boundaries to the tiny, tiny bit. I think when we think of like bras in...

As outerwear, I always think of like Sarah Jessica Parker in Sex and the City and like how she just, you always saw her bra and she just like always looked amazing. And I think that's really fun and I take a lot of inspiration from that, but it doesn't have to be like that. can just be like, you know, very Audrey Hepburn-esque with like a cardigan and you see the strap and you see just like the top of the bra. I think that's really elegant and pretty and sophisticated as well.

Emily Jean (18:22)

Totally.

I love this concept because I think it really, it's like, how can you feel sexy like all the time, anytime, whenever you want. And not necessarily, that doesn't necessarily denote looking like, you know, super sexy or however people want to put it, but like, what can you do to make you kind of embrace that essence of, yeah, I'm like a woman. Like I get to wear a bra and like that's so much fun.

Eleanor (18:52)

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think I speak to a lot of women who say, especially now, you know, post COVID, they're like, I don't need to wear a bra, but like, I sometimes want to wear a bra under, you know, this thing, and I want it to show and I want it to be really pretty. And so the bras I buy, I'm investing in and I want it to be seen. And I think that's really fun. And I think that's, you know, for us, when we created Verdant, we wanted something that was going to be a staple in someone's wardrobe and something that was really timeless. And so all of

Emily Jean (19:10)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Eleanor (19:23)

our pieces are made to be worn from day to night. ⁓

So yeah, going to the office and then going out to cocktails with friends, you have one bra. You don't have to like change in the middle of the day, which I think a lot of women think about having like a t-shirt bra and like their work bra. And we want you to hopefully, you know, have all of those things, but maybe you could have like one of those things from Verdant that like encompasses all of those. Yeah. ⁓

Emily Jean (19:40)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I guess I'm curious, is there a surprising way or somebody even that you've seen style lingerie for outside wear that's like you're really impressed by?

Eleanor (20:08)

Yeah, I was thinking about this. I mean, I think we all know, do you know that the Madonna like cone bra?

Jean-Paul Cotier. Yeah. So like, I feel like that is, you know, like top of everyone's mind. I think that was like a really special moment. ⁓ I can't think of anything that stands out a ton. I personally really love corsets and I love that like when they come in and out of fashion and are still used in fashion, corsets are like the, you the start of lingerie. They were the basis of lingerie. And I love that they're still a staple because it really is an essential, I think. ⁓ And that we are

Emily Jean (20:17)

Yes, yes, of course, yes.

Eleanor (20:47)

able to move from like boning like actual whale bone to like something a little bit more flexible ⁓ so it's more comfortable. ⁓ Yeah do you have anything that jumps out like can you think of a moment where that I guess like Britney Spears like those were all those moments to like the VMAs.

Emily Jean (20:52)

Yes. Yeah.

Right.

Well, I know, ⁓ like for me, I loved Katie Holmes. I remember she had that kind of like iconic gray bra with the gray sweater with the jeans. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah. I think so. was something like that. I saw in an interview she was talking about that recently because obviously that photo kind of went viral.

Eleanor (21:19)

Yes, yes. Was that the row? Yeah.

Emily Jean (21:32)

And she was like, yeah, the bra never quite fit me right. So after that, actually, she gave it to a friend or something like that. And I was like, that's so chic. Like it's like, you know, she looked so amazing and gorgeous. And it's, I didn't even really realize it was a bra, but it makes sense now thinking about the photo. And ⁓ anyways, yeah, so I think that's a great example. Obviously Rihanna does a really good job of like styling lingerie and outerwear, but yeah.

Eleanor (21:49)

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think Dochi now too, Dochi like looks amazing in like her sport. Yeah.

Emily Jean (22:03)

Yes, yes, that's another one. Totally.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that corsets are coming back. I totally agree with that. think corsets are so like, it seems like everybody's doing it, but it looks good and new in a new way every single time.

Eleanor (22:18)

Yeah, yeah, and there's so many different ways to do it. Like you can do the half corset. can do like actually the top I'm wearing now is like a corset inspired top. Yeah, it's so fun. Fashion is so fun.

Emily Jean (22:30)

So fun,

so fun. So I wanna ask you a little bit about the Ferdinand's philosophy. I know that, I think you said it before, but it's, the quote is, tailored for stillness and motion. Can you kind of unpack what that means? I think I know what you're gonna say, but please.

Eleanor (22:51)

Okay,

so when Michelle and I were thinking about the brand and really who we wanted to serve and who our client was going to be, we thought a lot about our own lives and our girlfriends lives and the women that we've, you know, fit over decades and especially in New York, like you're always on the go. ⁓

I mentioned it earlier, but Michelle's a mom of two. I'm a dog mom, and so I'm running around with my dog all the time. And you're, you know, you see all these brands that they capture women in lingerie just kind of standing there or like laying down.

And like that's beautiful, like editorially it looks great, but you're wearing your bra as like the base of your wardrobe. It's something that like keeps you in place. It keeps you comfortable. ⁓ It makes the rest of your wardrobe look put together. And so we wanted a line that was based in movement. so Michelle and I actually fit test every single sample that we create before it actually goes into production. wear it out for

the day, sometimes wear it like the bottoms to yoga, or you know, she'll wear one of the bras out, which is taking her kids to school, I'll wear it out when I'm running errands, just to make sure that it actually lives up to our standard. And then if you look at our photography on our website, our models are actually constantly in motion. They're walking, they're dancing, they're moving around. It was really important for us that the brand ⁓

is a product for people to be moving around in because you know it's great to be lounging around in lingerie but for the most part like 99 percent of the time you're you're moving around in it.

Emily Jean (24:48)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think the goal is to move around in it.

Eleanor (24:53)

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think like we've all been there like where you'll try on a bra and a star and you're like, my gosh, this looks amazing. And then the first time you wear it, like, you you walk a block and you're like, this is not in place. Like what is happening? ⁓ And so that is, yeah, that is what we're aiming to avoid with our product.

Emily Jean (25:07)

⁓ boy. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yes,

yes, I love that. It is funny how it's so specific. Like I'm like thinking of my bras now. like, yeah, it's so, I have like two or three that are like my go-to bras and I can't find them anywhere else. Like it's like just perfect for me. ⁓ It's a really tailored experience. Are there any details in the design or fit that you feel like most people or designers overlook?

Eleanor (25:31)

Yeah.

Emily Jean (25:43)

but you guys are really obsessed with.

Eleanor (25:46)

Yeah, we hit on this a little bit, but the stretch and recovery for our fabrics, I think is the biggest part of it for us. ⁓ There are a few brands that we both really love that like we've had our bras forever from those brands. ⁓ And they also have like really great stretch and recovery, typically like French made ⁓ fabrics. ⁓ Another

part of it for us, it's really, I don't know if you have this problem, but I feel like I'm always on the search for seamless bottoms. And Michelle and I are both gym buddies and we both hate visible panty lines on ourselves, for ourselves. And so we're really trying to make the perfect seamless bottom. And right now all of our bottoms are folded. So there is a very faint line, but we're trying to continuously twirl

Emily Jean (26:20)

Mm.

Yeah.

Eleanor (26:42)

tweak it to make a fully seamless bottom.

Emily Jean (26:46)

Love that. I love that. Those are really good details to know. So I want to talk to you a little bit about the holiday capsule. So ⁓ we're obviously in August right now, but this will be coming out not too far, I think, from that time. So without giving everything away, what can people expect from the holiday capsule?

Eleanor (27:10)

Yeah, so it's our first holiday kind of mini collection, our capsule collection. ⁓

When we were thinking of holiday, were thinking of, you know, the same thing with what the basis of Verdant is, is like an elevated classic piece, kind of a timeless piece. And what elevates a gift is like, you you put ribbon on it and maybe you like tie a bow or like you curl the ribbon to make it look a little extra special and precious. And so Michelle played around with ⁓ some different ribbon and she found this really gorgeous abstract embroidery.

and placed it on some silk straps and it really looks like it's floating on the body and kind of enveloping you and so I like to say it's like a little gift to yourself for the holiday. Yeah, I know I can't wait for people to see it. It's so gorgeous.

Emily Jean (28:01)

my gosh, cute. That sounds so chic. I love that.

Yeah.

Is there one piece that you're like very excited about specifically?

Eleanor (28:14)

Yes, so we are expanding our collection for the first time to have a robe. So to go along with like all of our, you know, pieces, wardrobe essentials, I think a robe is something that...

Emily Jean (28:19)

Mm.

Eleanor (28:29)

every woman has and whether it's like a really cozy robe or whether it's like a silky robe that you put on to like feel really great at the end of the night or in the morning. It's a staple and so for us we wanted to add this into the holiday collection to kind of round out the set ⁓ and so we're super excited about that. Michelle is sampling it now and we're trying to find the perfect fabric for it ⁓ to hopefully use for like future loungewear as well.

Emily Jean (28:59)

I love that. I'm excited to see. I'm curious, I think for lot of founders who are navigating brand identity and, you know, kind of brand guidelines and things like that, how do you guys balance creating something fresh while also keeping that kind of core identity intact?

Eleanor (29:13)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that can be really tricky. ⁓

I think for us it's about sticking to the basics and so Verdant is all about having these like timeless classics.

signature pieces, signature silhouettes. I mean for our holiday collection we are using our longline bra and our classic bikini. And I think longline bras, think they're you know on the newer side some people don't even know about longline bras but they are like they're gorgeous on, they're really supportive and I think elevating those pieces to be a little bit more special. And I don't think you need to like we're not reinventing the wheel creating you know this lingerie line we're just trying

to elevate a wardrobe staple and I think that's the same thing. ⁓ I think you can do something really special by doing less sometimes, know, less is more and I think that's true for Verdant and for the holiday capsule. ⁓ The fabric itself is really simple and then we're doing just something just a little bit extra to make it stand out.

Emily Jean (30:40)

that simplest is often best. Isn't that what they say? ⁓ So I want to go back a little bit to customer service and exceptional service. I'm really curious, how do you kind of translate that exceptional service driven approach into an e-commerce world?

Eleanor (30:44)

Yes.

Yeah, are you are you an ecom shopper? Are you a brick and mortar shopper?

Emily Jean (31:10)

I'm

in e-comm. I never go in person anymore. Every time I go into the mall, like, can't. It's not for me.

Eleanor (31:18)

Yeah, I... it's funny, so many of my friends are e-comm shoppers as well, ⁓ but I am still a brick-and-mortar shopper. I love going into a store and I love feeling things and I love putting things on my body to see how it fits. ⁓

I think one of, there are three things that I think we try to stick to. One is that we do virtual fittings on our website. So you can book an appointment and you would do a fitting with Michelle or I. And we talk about, you know, not necessarily just your size, but also what style is right for you. I think oftentimes I hit on this a little earlier, but we can get stuck in our size and every body shape is a little different. And so some people may need a little bit more coverage or may need a little more lift.

And so they'll want like a fuller coverage bra ⁓ or if you want a little more lift, like a balcony net or demi style bra. so talking about what, ⁓ what it is that you really are looking for and need for your body. We also try to be really flexible with returns. think that's really important, especially now post COVID where so many people are traveling all the time and there are so many digital nomads out there being flexible with people and emergencies too, you

we're all people, there are emergencies that come up, things get hidden underneath other boxes, and if you still have that item in stock, I don't see why you can't take it back and, you know, resell it to someone else. That's really, I think, important to us that we're being flexible with our clients and exchanging it for something else, another size, another style. And the third thing is that we try to reach out to all of our clients to get feedback about the product, especially since we're so new.

and incorporate that feedback into the brand. ⁓ We're two people, we have a lot of girlfriends, we have clients around that we ask for feedback, but I think people who are outside of New York and people who don't know us personally, getting that feedback is really important as well because the way they're wearing the brand, the way they see the brand is very different, I think, than what we see in our little bubble here. And we actually, one of the things that we did actually

after our first pop-up was we did create kind of like not a t-shirt like foam bra but we created like a seamless bra so like we did our first core collection with a Modal ⁓ fabric and that was feedback from our first pop-up from someone.

Emily Jean (33:58)

So I am curious about that. ⁓ I think for founders listening to this to have a product in hand, did you guys go about beta testing or what does that, how do you get feedback before you get to market?

Eleanor (34:15)

Yeah, we've done it a couple of different ways since we've launched. We've had four different collections that are out right now, but we kind of launched it two and two. And so production was kind of split. And the first time around, we had friends wear test the product. And the second time around, Michelle and I really wore tests. We wore every single piece out.

excuse me, we wore every single piece out, ⁓ washed every single piece, because you never know in the wash if something's gonna happen. And actually for the core collection, the first core collection, we had this really gorgeous trim that we found. And we loved it, and it was seamless, and we're like, we're finally gonna have a seamless bottom. And then the trim totally stretched out in the wash, and yeah, we had to scrap it. ⁓ I still have that sample and I wear it all the time, but.

it's yeah it's important to do those things and I think a lot of brands either don't have the time or I think maybe don't have the foresight to see that like when this goes out in the real world like what you've produced isn't the same thing as what somebody's wearing every single day and I think you know we are a luxury brand so the price point is really high especially producing in New York. ⁓

And so we need to make sure that the product is as close to perfect as it can be for people to want to pay that amount of money to buy it.

Emily Jean (35:45)

Right.

Right. And I know that you, Verdant, has very strong social and sustainability values. Though that's kind of a trending, I think, idea for brands right now. How do you incorporate those ideas into the everyday operations of without it just kind of feeling like marketing?

Eleanor (36:12)

Yeah, I think consumers are really smart nowadays and have always been, but like we have so much information at our fingertips. ⁓ It's so easy to just go and look up a brand and see who the owner is and see how it started and how long it's been around and you know what they're actually doing, if they're following their values. When we started Verdant, we...

we thought about the type of brand that we would want to shop. As an entrepreneur, I'm a real sucker for a founder story. So I love finding brands that are founded by women, Asian-American women especially. Michelle and I are both Filipina. And so that's really important to me and I'll totally stay loyal to a brand if it's a woman founder.

And Michelle finds these like really cool, small, woman-owned brands that she's super loyal to. And so for us, it's we created our brand based on our values and not the other way around. ⁓ And I think all of the women who shop with us as well, like they are really into shopping women-owned brands, shopping New York based brands, New York produced brands. ⁓ I think that, you know, that's really, really shrinking. ⁓

And I think producing in New York is really special and I think we're really privileged to be able to do that and we don't take that lightly. And so I think anyone else that we can support, we would love to, you know, shop with those people as well. Yeah.

Emily Jean (37:54)

Yeah, absolutely. I am. I'm curious, then is there a kind of one retail or even one luxury rule that you are more than happy to break?

Eleanor (38:11)

⁓

think this is a little bit of a hot take, but I don't think the customer is always right. I think, again, working in customer service is really hard. I've been in customer service since I was 14. And it is hard work. You have to go into work with a smile on your face. You have to be really genuine and amiable, even if you're having a really rough day. And...

Emily Jean (38:19)

Okay.

Mm.

Eleanor (38:42)

Yeah, I think we all need to be a little kinder to each other and think about how difficult...

you know, what difficult positions we're all in and what we're all we're all just trying to do our job and trying to find something to like make our day better. You know, people are shopping, they're looking for something to like perk themselves up or like perk up someone else and like make someone else's day better. And I think that's really important to think about that, you know, we're all just here trying to live a better life. And I think

Again, I think it would be great if everyone worked in customer service or hospitality for a year. I think it would change a lot of people's mindsets about how they interact with people.

Emily Jean (39:30)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I very much understand and relate to that. We used to have a quote at work, something like, that the customer is often hardly right, but you have to pretend they are, like something along those lines. I always thought that was so funny.

Eleanor (39:52)

Yeah, that's really good. I've never heard that. I love that. Yeah, that's true. I mean, it's totally true. ⁓ Yeah, I love that. That's great.

Emily Jean (39:56)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I think it's good to like, reminds you that you can be amenable and kind and polite. And you can also be cognizant that like, this is a little bit out, like this request is a little bit out there.

Eleanor (40:21)

Yeah, I

did once have someone that like brought back ⁓ a product that was like still tagged something we carried in store because it was, you know, staple for this retailer I worked at. But it had been in the person's ⁓ storage unit for two years. And so we had the we had it in the system. But I was like, I.

Emily Jean (40:44)

Mm-hmm.

I'm not even sure what's due with that. ⁓

Eleanor (40:48)

Yeah, I don't know what to do here. Like, I see that it hasn't been

worn and I know that we have it right here, but like, it's been two years. Yeah, it's tricky. It's hard because I get it. I get it.

Emily Jean (40:56)

Right.

Totally,

Everyone has their things, right? Yeah. So looking ahead, I want to know what is next for you guys. Is there a kind of dream collaboration for Dawn that you can think of?

Eleanor (41:11)

Yeah.

Yeah, there is someone, Michelle and I were talking about this recently. ⁓ There's this designer named Ashlyn Park that's based here in New York. She actually started out as a pattern maker and she now has her own line ⁓ and has won some awards. And she looks at women's wear in the same way that we kind of do, like timeless classics that you can elevate in a way by shaping the product to be kind of architectural. And so that would be really exciting for us. ⁓

She's

an Asian woman in New York. ⁓ I don't know if she produces in New York, but I know she designs everything here. And yeah, that would be amazing.

Emily Jean (42:05)

Yeah,

cool. I'm curious, like, is lingerie the forever home or are you guys ever looking to expand beyond that?

Eleanor (42:18)

Yeah, I think we're really trying to refine the product still. So for us, lingerie is always going to be the base for us. We are starting out the loungewear.

research with the robe and looking into it for the next couple of collections and finding the right fabrics and the right cuts that will, you know, go along with the brand. And Michelle and I both really love swim. We would really love to dip our toes into swim at some point. Yeah, I love resort and I love, I love the idea of like creating like a Verdant Sun collection or something.

Emily Jean (43:03)

cute. I love that. Yeah, I know you mentioned the robe before, so it sounds so cool. I'm so excited to see what all it looks like. I want to do some kind of rapid fires with you, the wrap ups. I don't want to take too much of your time. Okay, my first question is, what is the most underrated lingerie color?

Eleanor (43:13)

Thanks

I think for me, it's white. I love white. Yeah. I think a lot of people think of like black and nude as neutrals, but I think white is like a great lingerie color.

Emily Jean (43:29)

okay.

I've been also loving mint lately, like randomly. Like a good little mint.

Eleanor (43:43)

Mint.

When I worked at Jernel, if there were any collections that were mint, they would immediately sell out. It's such a good color, no matter the time of the year. You know, it's like, it's a pastel, but it's like, it doesn't wash people out. It's, yeah.

Emily Jean (43:53)

Probably.

For sure.

It looks good on every skin tone. Yeah.

Eleanor (44:03)

Yeah,

and any of you with like your blonde and your tan, like, yeah, I can totally see that. Yeah.

Emily Jean (44:09)

Thank you. ⁓ Yeah. So my second question, is there a denim cut that for you, you think works best with lingerie?

Eleanor (44:22)

Yeah, I for me, I love a mid rise.

and kind of like a wide leg. And then, you if you think of like a woman's body being kind of like a triangle ⁓ and then doing something kind of like fitted straight up. So for me, the mid rise wide leg and a long line bra. But I think everybody is different. Michelle, like, looks amazing in like a barrel leg jean and like our ⁓ our demi bra. So I think it's different for everybody. But yeah, I'm sticking to long line.

Emily Jean (44:56)

Right. Love it. Love it. Perfect answer.

Is there one lingerie trend that you wish would disappear forever?

Eleanor (45:07)

⁓ did you see the, I won't name the brand and I hope I don't get a hate mail for this, but like the brand that did like the nipple piercing bra. Yeah. So for Michelle and I, were both like, I don't get it. But like for them, great. Like they're totally sold out of it. And I think it just came out this spring. So like amazing for them that they found this niche, but like, yeah, that's not for us. Yeah.

Emily Jean (45:18)

I did actually.

Yeah.

Perfect.

Yeah, it's

pretty out there. ⁓ I would love to try one on though, I can't lie. Like I would just be curious, like what's going on? What's it look like? I have so many questions.

Eleanor (45:37)

Yeah.

Yeah, it's like

that Sex and the City episode where Samantha has like the fake nipples. Yeah. Yeah, I love that episode.

Emily Jean (45:48)

Yes, it's exactly what I was just thinking.

Okay, my last question. Do you have like a go-to outfit for a quick confidence boost?

Eleanor (46:02)

Yes, so.

I am definitely a true New Yorker in that I wear all black all the time. ⁓ And so for me, it's about doing something a little unexpected and a little sexy and a little sparkly. I love a sparkle. So I will wear one of our bras, our Modal Plunge Bra has this really gorgeous trim embedded in the band, in the middle of the band. And so I love wearing that when it's exposed, so a low back.

Emily Jean (46:09)

Mm-hmm.

Eleanor (46:34)

top and like some coated jeans and then some like great shoes like I love gray matter shoes Sylvia produces here in New York and they're like these gorgeous architectural shoes that are like so comfortable ⁓ and then like a sparkly purse this person Volta Atelier that's like made in Brazil from like dead stock fabric and I like carry it everywhere it's like my go-to purse

Emily Jean (46:56)

So cute, perfect, perfect outfit. And I actually faked you out. I said that was my last question. Actually, I have one more question for you. Do you have a book or a resource or a course or anything like that for budding entrepreneurs that you can recommend?

Eleanor (46:59)

Yeah.

Yes, I love this question. ⁓ I am currently reading Vanessa Van Edwards' book, Cues. Do you know this? Do know who she is? She's like a social psychologist, I think. ⁓ Don't hold me to that. I'm pretty sure that's what she is. But she talks about how we have these 97 cues that she has studied and how they affect our interactions in everyday life. Like there are vocal cues, verbal cues, physical cues, and there's the fourth one. ⁓

Emily Jean (47:24)

Mmm, I don't.

Eleanor (47:45)

And I think being customer service, it's really, really important to know those things. And I think also just being a business owner when you're interacting, whether you're like trying to raise money or whether you're networking, you know, sending an email, taking headshots. took headshots with my team the other day and I was like, you know, reading her book of like all the things you need to do and like tilting your head and like the smile and all of that. And I think it's really like these are really soft skills that you can learn and you can change about yourself to.

be much more approachable. So I would 100 % recommend reading that book.

Emily Jean (48:21)

Okay, great, that's a really good recommendation. Normally, I hear a lot of the kind of classic self-help and entrepreneurial books, so I love that. That's a unique one, I'm gonna have to look it up.

Eleanor (48:33)

Yeah, and she does a ton of podcasts on YouTube. So if you just search her, ⁓ wherever you listen to her podcasts, she's great.

Emily Jean (48:36)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Okay. Great. Great. Well, Eleanor, thank you so much for joining me. ⁓ Where can people find you and where can they find Verdant?

Eleanor (48:51)

Yeah, so we are at Verdant-NYC.com or you can find us on Instagram at Verdant underscore New York. Keep your eyes peeled for our capsule collection and maybe also a couple of pop-ups coming up before the holiday as well.

Emily Jean (49:09)

Okay, great. Well, thank you so much, Eleanor. I'm so excited I got to have you on. I'm really excited for people to hear this. I think it's like a perfect, perfect episode.

Eleanor (49:19)

Thank you, Emily. really, really appreciate it. ⁓ This was really fun. yeah, I have learned a lot from the other podcasts I've listened to of yours. And so I hope somebody learns a little something from this as well. But if not, ⁓ it was really fun. Yeah, it's.

Emily Jean (49:37)

Thank you, I'm flattered.